WMSG Representation

From SAGoClubs
Revision as of 19:49, 11 October 2011 by Thekro (talk | contribs) (→‎Final proposal (pending SAGA Council approval): accepted)
(diff) ← Older revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
Jump to navigation Jump to search

WMSG representation options

Current Structure

  • An individual event, closed to professionals, open to both male and female, with two (2) players per country
  • An individual male event, open to professionals, with five (5) players per country
  • An individual female event, open to professionals, with three (3) players per country
  • A male team event, open to professionals, one team per country, with five (5) players per team (one alternate possible)
  • A female team event, open to professionals, one team per country, with three (5) players per team (one alternate possible)
  • A pairgo event, open to professionals, with one team per country, and two (2) players per team

2008 Choices

In 2008, as a matter of practicality given the lateness of the information about eligibility and what sponsorship was available, it was decided to use the results of the 2007 SA closed tournament to determine which male players would represent South Africa in the open and men's individual events. No players were sent to take part in the female individual event, nor were any male or female teams sent. We did send a pairgo team - the male was selected based on results at the SA closed, the female was chosen based on being the top rated female player on the current ranking system (that was eligible to represent South Africa).

The Future

For future WMSG events, we have the following issues to debate (note - all months are rounded down to the first day of the month)



Players must be South African citizens. We will need to decide at what point they should be citizens.

PROPOSAL: players should be SA citizens four months before the event starts.

What are the WMSG rules in this regard? --TheKro 08:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The WMSG rules are basically that they have no rules. They defer qualification criteria to the governing bodies of the relevant countries. See section 4.3 at IMSA GENERAL CONDITIONS OF CONTEST
I referred to the AGA rules when formulating the principles here. The details can be found in the section titled "Who is eligible?" in this document AGA Qualification Rules.
In this case, I would recommend earlier of (a) 6 months before the event starts, and (b) 1 month before the WMSG deadline for the list of team members. --TheKro 18:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


Players should be somewhat resident in South Africa.

PROPOSAL: players should have been resident for six months in the 18 months preceding the start of the tournament.

I think most of the selection criteria we are considering will have this as a side-effect. I don't think it's necessary to stipulate it directly. (Again, what do the WMSG rules stipulate?) --TheKro 08:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, so no requirement from the WMSG side: I suggest we leave this point out. --TheKro 18:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

SAGA Membership

Players must be SAGA members. We will need to decide for how long.

PROPOSAL: players should have been SAGA members for twelve months prior to the start of the event.

Again, most of our criteria will imply this. (Exception: specific WMSG qualifying events). Slightly modified proposal:

ALTERNATIVE PROPOSAL: players should have been SAGA members for the twelve months prior to their selection.

(As an aside, this proposal highlights the weakness of our current "lapse at the beginning of each year" membership system: people who renew their membership each year at the same tournament are currently only members for the period from the tournament to 31 December each year, and then their membership lapses until the tournament is held again.) --TheKro 08:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


  • Option 1: players are selected based on their WAGC points tally four months before the tournament starts.
  • Option 2: players are selected based on their results at preceding SA closed.
  • Option 3: players are selected based on their performance at specific WMSG qualifying events.
  • Option 4: players are selected based on their SAGA ranks on a pre-specified date for selection.

PROPOSAL: players are selected based on their results at specific WMSG qualifying events.

Comment (Steve Kroon): "I agree with the proposal. I think we need to specify that representatives may only participate in one event unless we cannot find funding for all events. In that case, members attending other events may participate in duplicate events if permitted by WMSG rules at the discretion of the SAGA council.

I would suggest three tournaments: one for pair Go (I believe we could use the results of best pair in an annual SA rengo championship - such a tournament could also be used for selection for the World Pair-Go champs), one for selection of all the males (open to females wishing to participate for a slot in the individual - we could use the SA Closed (with tiebreakers lower down) for this), and one for selection of all the females for the female-only events.

(I also like the SAGA ranks approach - the biggest issue there is handling the pair-go teams.) --TheKro 08:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment (Andrew Davies): "One possible change I would consider: Individual player, fully sponsored representation: I suggest this uses WAGC credit points. My reasoning is that it provides more people the opportunity to represent South Africa, but does not apply to pair Go or unsponsored representation."

Reply to Andrew from Steve Kroon: "I disagree with this based on the premise of this being a kind of extension to the Olympics: for any other sport, our representatives would be the absolute best we could get. The other tournaments have, to an extent, a tradition of being more of a celebration of Go, with a dispersal of tickets among representatives so more people can be exposed to the culture and wonder of Go internationally.

On the other hand, the WMSG (and the Oza), are fiercely competitive events, which I would think expect us to regularly send our best player.

Other considerations:

  • If the WMSG in future introduces qualifying criteria (like the Olympics), say 5-dan, we won't be able to use our point system.
  • Not using the point system is easier from an administration perspective. Every 4 years we have a tourney, and choose reps. Otherwise, the timing of the invite for the WMSG will affect people's choices as to which tournaments they want to attend, etc. Also, one can envisage (strong) players turning down the invite so they can go to KPMC/WAGC, and still attending the WMSG in the team/pair tournaments."

Reply to Steve from Andrew Davies: Good points - you have convinced me.

Impact on WAGC points

  • Option 1: All representatives lose WAGC points (in the usual way that representing SA causes you to lose WAGC points)
  • Option 2: Only sponsored representatives lose WAGC points
  • Option 3: Only the players in WAGC-like events (the OPEN section) lose WAGC points
  • Option 4: Some hybrid of the above, e.g. only sponsored players in the WAGC-like events lose points
  • Option 5: No one loses WAGC points

PROPOSAL: No one loses WAGC points.

Re: option 2 - are there non-sponsored representatives?

I feel this should be treated like the Oza, so I agree: no one should lose WAGC points. --TheKro 08:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Multiple Event participation

The tournament organizers allow some players to play in multiple events, for instance, the individual and team events.

  • Option 1: Allow players to play in multiple events, where permitted
  • Option 2: Only allow players to play in one event (permitting the maximum amount of players to take part)

The reality is that it is unlikely that there will be funds to allow a full complement of players to participate. If there is another event in 2012, it is unclear whether it will be held in London (the Olympic venue), or in a Asia Pacific country, where Go is more popular. Most likely the latter, making it too expensive for most South Africans.

PROPOSAL: if sufficient sponsorship, only allow one event per person, otherwise leave it to the discretion of the SAGA council presiding at the time.

I've touched on this above: I like only allowing multiple representation if there are still vacancies. I like the idea of the SAGA council being able to use its discretion, but I do think we need to specify that players should be offered the chance for multiple representation in order of qualifying position (i.e. it's not fair for the person placed third in the qualifier to take part in 2 events if the person placed first in the qualifier was not given that option.) --TheKro 08:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Final proposal

1. To be eligible for selection, a player must (i) be a South African citizen by the earlier of (a) 6 months before the scheduled event start and (b) 1 month before the deadline for submitting the list of team members. (ii) have been a member of SAGA for ten of the twelve months prior to the earlier of (a) 6 months before the scheduled event start and (b) 1 month before the deadline for submitting the list of team members.

[Note: the "ten of twelve" requirement is to cater for membership lapses at the beginning of the year.]

2. Selection will be based on tournament results as far as possible: (a) Selection of representatives for the pair-go event will be based on the placing of male-female pairs in the most recent South African Rengo tournament held. Ideally, such a tournament will be run annually, or a tournament will be run specifically for selection. (b) Selection for all other events will be based on placement in the most recently completed SA Closed. (c) If these tournaments do not yield sufficient numbers for selection, further selection will be based on SAGA ratings.

3. Representatives at the WMSG will have representatives points deducted from their credit points balance. However, a player's attendance at the WMSG does not preclude him from attending other international tournaments, and vice versa. The points deduction will also not depend on the number of events the participant competes in at the WMSG.

[Note: this is the biggest change from the discussion on the wiki.]

4. Participation in multiple events will be encouraged in order to maximize South Africa's participation by the contingent selected to attend the event. In other words, those attending the event may take part in other events for which they qualify if we are not otherwise sending representatives for those events. Participation in these events will be allocated on an opt-in basis, with one opportunity offered repeatedly in decreasing order of strength (using wrap-around if necessary).

Update: this proposal was accepted by the SAGA Council on 3 October 2011.