SAGA council minutes 8 October 2012

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Minutes of SAGA Council meeting Held on Google Talk on 8 October 2012 at 20h00

Background information on various points included in past agendas.

Present: Steve Kroon, Francois van Niekerk, Ben Gale, Paul Steyn, David Richfield Absent with apology: John Leuner

Adoption of minutes of previous meetings

The minutes of the meeting of 9/7/2012 were accepted without objections. Proposed: Steve; Seconded: David

Next meeting

The next meeting was scheduled for 20h00 on 14 January 2013 on Google Talk.

Reports on completed items from previous meetings

Reports on new completed items

Unresolved items from previous meetings

No. 1208: SAGA's strategy and financial planning

David reported there had been no progress on this item.

No. 509: Maintenance of membership list

David and Paul reported there had been no progress on this item.

No. 909: Soweto initiative

David reported that the project is making progress. A proposal for sponsorship was drafted by Arnold Wentzel, and is being revised/modified by Ben Gale and Tristan (Taylor, presumably?). We again postponed making a decision on supporting this project, since we still do not have clarity on our financial situation. Ben indicated he would take over responsibility for this item from David.

No. 110: African Qualifiers for World Pair Go Championship

John was absent, so no report on this item.

No. 810: Inter-country tournaments

Francois reported there had been no progress on this item.

No. 910: Liaison with cultural divisions

David reported there had been no progress on this item.

1.11: Letter to European Go Federation

David reported there had been no progress on this item.

3.11: Access to bank accounts and investments

John was absent, so no report on this item.

5.11: Policy for SA Closed flights

A decision on this was postponed until we have clarity on SAGA's financial situation.

7.11: Southern Hemisphere representation at SportAccord World Mind Games

This item is still waiting on the completion of item 1.11.

1.12: African Oza floating trophy

Francois reported there had been no progress on this item.

2.12: Allocation of interest to various funds

John was absent, so no report on this item. (It is assumed that this item was resolved between the previous meeting and this meeting, so will not be included on future agenda.)

New items

Matters arising

Meeting Transcript

(me is Steve Kroon)

8:01 PM Francois has joined

Francois has joined 8:02 PM David has joined

David has joined 8:03 PM David: I'm happy with either of the Jan. dates on the agenad.

Francois: agenda link?



me: hello? 8:04 PM Francois: thanx

me: hi

David: Hi!

me: we need ben or paul for a quorum

David: k 8:05 PM Francois: what does ".-3" do?

me: ?

David: current line minus 3

me: context?

David: Vim, not perl.

Francois: context: ".-3s/agenad/agenda/" 8:06 PM me: ah

Francois: I haven't seen that yet, thanx

me: ok, paul's online

Paul has joined

Paul has joined

me: waiting for quorum, you're it ;) 8:07 PM Paul: He all

He all

David: Hi!

Paul: *Hey

me: francois - can you please send me a transcript afterwards (although I think Google will keep one for me)

Francois: righto

Ben has joined

Ben has joined 8:08 PM me: welcome, ben

agenda at

we have a quorum

I prpose we accept the last meeting's minutes


David: 2nded

Francois: second

Paul: I second 8:09 PM me: any issues with the dates?

7/14/21 Jan

David: All OK.

Francois: no problem here

me: OK, then I think we go with 14 Jan, in case anyone has a long Xmas break for some reason ;) 8:10 PM Francois: good idea

me: On to old unresolved items

1208: David?

Paul has left

Paul has left

David: :-(

Nothing, sorry.

Nothing, sorry.

Paul has joined

Paul has joined

David: Ditto on membership list. 8:11 PM Paul: Sorry, Chrome!

me: 509: Any news from Paul's side?

Paul: Nothing new

me: 909: David?

David: Well, a lot of is is kind of done,

me: 909 Still waiting for financials, I guess 8:12 PM David: and I'm a bit sad that I wasn't there to see the tournament.

But we definitely need some photos from the tournament.

Ben: I have progress on 909

David: This will make it easier to approach sponsors.

Ben: photos too

me: I'd like to discuss some concerns about the Soweto schools proposal off the record after the meeting - preferably with David and Ben at least - others are welcome too 8:13 PM David: Sure!

Ben: Arnold wrote a proposal... I took it to Tristen for refinement. Will be done soon.

me: but, yeah, the financials are "close" to ready, and once 2009's come out, 2010 and 2011 should be relatively quick

Ben: are the financials audited? 8:14 PM me: ben: no, they're not, AFAIK

Ben: damn

David: I've never seen auditor's costs on our budgets.

I mean, auditors' 8:15 PM me: ok, moving on: 110 - no news from John 8:16 PM 810: Francois?

Francois: no progress, sorry

me: 910: David?

(and 1.11)

David: No progress on any of my action items, sorry!

me: 3.11: no news from John 8:17 PM 5.11 still waiting for financials

7.11 still blocked

1.12: Francois?

Francois: no progress again, sorry

me: pity - the SA Closed would have been a good opportunity 8:18 PM 2.12 No updates from John

ok. That's pretty much all the official stuff on the agenda.

does anyone have an issue with the proposed approach to resolving the SA Closed ties?

that I emailed out yesterday?

David: I thought it seemed fair. 8:19 PM Paul: What is the propsed solution ? I thought you emailed out that Francois should make a call ?

me: (i.e. we trust Francois's judgment, unless people appeal)

Paul: ah, right

David: But I've never been much of a tournament lawyer.

Ben: it's fine by me

Paul: Well, my feeling is we use rule a applied twice, but we should either take a vote, or leave it to Francois

I'm fine with leaving it up to Francois

I'm fine with leaving it up to Francois 8:20 PM me: not that I want to pressure Francois, but that's also my opinion of the most sensible interpretation

David: Sorry, I misremembered; I thought the answer was "rule applied twice + Francois to decide anyway"

Francois: i already made a considered response, but I will read through the email comments again before i make a decision

me: ok, so we leave it to Francois.

Paul: Do we need to consider an update to the rules ?

Francois: i think we should

Paul: For future clarification ? 8:21 PM me: i'll put that on the agenda if I get an email asking for a rule change

Francois: i have a proposal for a change, may i propose it now?

me: I think an "interpretation note" explaining how we interpret the rule is fine, rather than an official rule change.

David: I'm with Steve on this.

Francois: i would prefer that no interpretation is required 8:22 PM Ben: well i think the rules as they stand are silly

David: It's not a "rule change" either way, just really a clarification on how the rule is applied.

Paul has left

Paul has left

me: well, the idea is that the interpretation note explains how the rule should ber interpreted, so that interpretation isn't required in future.

Francois: i would actually like to propose a small change

me: but if we want to propose a rule change now, it depends: 8:23 PM if it's for future years, we propose it and vote on it, and it applies from next year if it passes

Francois: i think the rule should only apply to future years ofc

David: When is the AGM again?

me: if it's for this year, too, we need a case explaining why the current rules didn't work now

Francois: s/rule/rule change/

David: i.e. the open... 8:24 PM Francois: the AGM and the open aren't the same thing...

me: if it's just from next year, I recommend rather sending out an email saying that we plan to propose a rule change at the next council meeting, and those interested in commenting can participate by email (off the council mailing list, to keep traffic levels low for non-rules-loawyers

agm is early april, usually

David: Ah, OK. 8:25 PM Sorry, got confused between the tournaments.

Francois: ok, i will propose my change via email then

me: put another way, Francois, I'd prefer getting people to agree informally in the community on the rule change rather than us voting on it now, and it turning out to be unpopular with the players involved. make sense? 8:26 PM (then we can also finalize this year's tie before bringing it up and muddying the issue, perhaps?)

Paul has joined

Paul has joined

Francois: ok, i just thought it might be a good idea to run it past you guys, but i think the email group is a better idea

Paul: Hey, sorry, chrome issues again. What did I miss ? 8:27 PM me: well, you can run it by, since the meeting is mostly over, but I just wouldn't recommend voting on it now

francois will suggest rule change by email for discussion among interested parties, for decision at next council meeting <- @paul

Paul: Sounds good

Francois: i will mention it right at the end, so that those not interested aren't bothered

me: any other matters arising? 8:28 PM Ben: "informally in the community on the rule change " doesnt make sense :)

"informally in the community on the rule change " doesnt make sense :)

me: wny do you say that, ben?

Francois: i think he just means that we'd like public acceptance

Ben: cos i didnt understand it 8:29 PM Paul: Quick question: the interim points are waiting on the tie-break decision, I'll release them soon after that. But the final points are due after, what, the KPMG? Do we know when that will be?

me: final points are due start of 2013.

KPMC is late ocober

Francois: i will be quick with my decision so the credit points can be resolved soon 8:30 PM Paul: cool

me: so I recommend collecting all the data you need, and sending out interim points ASAP, or jsut after KPMC

Francois: oh ok, well i'll try be quick anyways

me: any other matters arising?

Francois: one other matter i'd like to raise: the SA Open this year 8:31 PM currently there isn't one happening

me: i have one: PLEASE try to sort out some of these backlog issues, guys ;)

David: D= yeah...

Ben: you can give me the soweto one

David: Done!

Ben: I will sort it out. 8:32 PM me: thx, ben.

David: Then you'd better stay afterwards to hear what Steve has to say.

me: back to francois's point: SA Open this year

also no soweto open, unless you guys are actually holding it next week 8:33 PM Francois: at the last update, there was talk of doing the SA Open in Gauteng because there haven't been any closed qualifiers there this year

me: hmm - anyone here in gauteng? 8:34 PM at the moment?

David: I'm back, but have no time for anything.

Going to Nigeria in a week or two.

me: yeah, and I think john and Andre feel like that, too 8:35 PM Francois: as far as i understand, there doesn't have to be an open this year, but it would be sad if there wasn't and i don't like to be sad

me: Francois: can you email John, and ask if there's any possibility? Otherwise, IIRC Andrew said we could do it in CT if Gauteng feel thru? (or is that wishful thinking?)

David: :-| 8:36 PM Francois: i am pretty sure that between the ct and stellenbosch clubs, we will be able to host it, but i think it is important that gauteng has a qualifying tournament

me: wasn't there a joburg open earlier?

Francois: was there? i might have forgotten... 8:37 PM oh i see there was one june 3rd

me: was that qualifier for this year or next year's SA Closed?

Francois: that was used this year 8:38 PM i just checked

me: hmm

so perhaps a Pta open which can be a qualifier for next year?

so perhaps a Pta open which can be a qualifier for next year?

erm a SA Open in Pta

or even Soweto again?

Francois: yes, something like that was what i was thinking 8:39 PM but i don't stay in gauteng, so it is near to impossible for me to organise that

me: but you'll need to liaise with John, guys in Gauteng, maybe Arnold and Ben and David re Soweto

yeah, you'll need someone to say they'll handle it that side.

David: What's the deadline for the tournament? 8:40 PM me: well, if it's to be a SA Open for 2012, it's 2 months basically

Francois: yes

me: and to be a qualifier you need most of that as advance warning

so expect a tourney end of November/start of December if people get announcing this week 8:41 PM David: Not likely that I can organise it: I have a Wikipedia training session to organise on top of everything.

Paul: Wikipedia needs training ?

David: I'll tell you about it later.

Paul: :)

David: Train the trainer for librarians.

Francois: ok, well then i will ask john, but i was hoping to have someone from the council 8:42 PM me: not easy for Gauteng - only gauteng folks are John and David

Paul: Isn't John on the council ?

me: (on council) 8:43 PM Francois: i think i will also ask arnold, it seems like he did a good job with the recent tournament

David: Good idea.

Francois: i guess there isn't much more for us to discuss about it

me: kids might enjoy seeing top palyers from gauteng participating in nov/dec if the SA Open could be held in Soweto again 8:44 PM David: True.

Francois: that's a good idea

me: must just find a nice way to accommodate them

Ben: heee hee those kids are terrrrrible.

me: also, might be nice for the sponsrhsip angle

Ben: most dont know the rules properly

me: ok, shall we end off there then? 8:45 PM (remember david, ben: want to chat after)

(remember david, ben: want to chat after)

David: Ouch.

OK, move to adjourn?

me: adjourn

David: officially


Francois: sounds good 8:46 PM Paul: fine by me