SAGA council minutes 1 June 2015

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Minutes of SAGA Council meeting held on OGS on 1 June 2015 at 20h00

Background information on various points included in past agendas or on action items wiki page.

  • Present: Andrew Davies, Francois van Niekerk, Paul Steyn, Chris Welsh, John Leuner, Gordon Wells
  • Apologies: none
  • Absent: none

Adoption of minutes of previous meetings

The minutes of the meeting of 22/01/2015 were accepted without objections.

Next meeting

The next meeting was scheduled for 20h00 on 17 September 2015 on OGS. We would use a "doodle" to find the mutually compatible date closer to the time.

New council

The new council was confirmed as:

Gordon Wells: president Chris Welsh: secretary John Leuner: treasurer Andrew Davies: tournament secretary Paul Steyn: membership secretary

Francois was thanked again for his years of service

Status reports on portfolio responsibilities


Andrew noted that he still hadn't received the NGO docs.


Nothing of significance. Some logistics about getting stock to Cape Town was discussed.


Paul noted that he had falle behind on his duties, but had completed 2013 and 2014 credit points. He noted that only 17 members were paid up for 2015.


Gauteng open imminent. Winter league underway. WAGC imminent. Candidates is soon, Francois volunteered to take care of invitations.


Nothing to report

Action Items

No. 1208: SAGA's strategy and financial planning

No update. Chris offered to share his information about it with Gordon.

No. 909: Soweto initiative

No progress.

No. 910: Liaison with cultural divisions

Andrew's draft to be shared with council. Hand item over to Gordon.

3.11: Access to bank accounts and investments

No progress.

5.11: Policy for SA Closed flights

Chris noted that he did not have time to manage this item, and asked for volunteers to handle it. Andrew volunteered to manage it. Some discussion was held on perhaps just sponsoring the flights of players who could not afford to pay the flight themselves. This would be unfair if the location was always fixed, however. Alternatively, players could contribute. Another suggestion was alternating the venue, in advance. Andrew would put out a letter, asking players for input. John indicated that SAGA could afford to only contribute up to R2,000 (roughly one flight).

7.11: Southern Hemisphere representation at SportAccord World Mind Games

No progress

1.12: African Oza floating trophy

Consensus was on bringing all the trophies to Joburg, and leaving the engraving for another time.

1.13 Selection mechanism for SA Closed participants

Lengthy but fruitless discussion about the non CT/Gauteng players. No resolution. Andrew to own this item.

3.13: Registering SAGA as an NPO

Chris still to document this

5.13: Funding for Soweto Go


No. 1.14: Increased bank fees


No. 2.14: Document Cape Town School Initiative progress

No progress

No. 3.14: Set up a Winter League

In progress. There was lengthy discussion on the credit points to be allocated. Chris volunteered to set up a page to document the proposal and gather input.

No 4.14: Log our tournament results with the EGD

Chris volunteered to liaise with the EGD about how to go about this.

No 1.15: Establish whether residents (non-citizens) can play in European events

No, they cannot. Andrew confirmed that Aki would not be able able to represent us in European events. Archive this item.

No 2.15: Transition away from KGS for South African Tournament Events


No 3.15: Publishing NPO documents on the site

No progress. It was noted that 3.13 could be closed if the outstanding items moved here.

1.xx Complete Tournament rules and how-to documents

No progress. Hand over to Andrew

2.xx Update trophy engraving

No progress

Matters arising

Deduction of points for playing in pro-am events (like Samsung cup).

A lengthy discussion ensued. The details can be seen in the transcript. The eventual vote was that tournaments where the participants were not selected using the credit point mechanism should not incur a credit points deduction. We would however, ask for a contribution to SAGA from any winnings.

Meeting Transcript

[19:57] chris welsh: hi andrew
[19:57] adavies: Hi Folks!
[19:58] adavies: I was looking for you on Google :-)
[19:59] chris welsh: me too
[19:59] adavies: It is here is it?
[19:59] adavies: Its a bit quiet
[20:00] jewel: hi Guys
[20:00] adavies: Hi John
[20:00] chris welsh: Hi John
[20:01] chris welsh: i don't have a number for gordon..
[20:02] adavies: I dont either (I'm still hoping he'll give me 1 to add to the league info)
[20:02] chris welsh: francois on his waay
[20:02] svartrev: Hi all
[20:02] adavies: Hi Paul
[20:03] svartrev: Are we meeting on here now?
[20:03] jewel: gordon is joinig
[20:03] chris welsh: i don't know
[20:04] gordon.wells: hi
[20:04] adavies: Hi Gordon
[20:04] chris welsh: hi gordon
[20:04] chris welsh: glad you could make it
[20:05] gordon.wells: my apologies, I went straight to the group, thought the chat would show up there
[20:05] chris welsh: francois will be here shortly, then we can start
[20:05] chris welsh: reminder of agenda:
[20:07] francoisvn: i'm here
[20:07] francoisvn: sorry for being late
[20:07] adavies: Hi Francois
[20:08] chris welsh: Hi Francois, thanks for coming
[20:08] chris welsh: six people....must be a record :)
[20:09] chris welsh: We clearly have a quorum
[20:09] chris welsh: So, first item, acceptance of minutes
[20:09] chris welsh:
[20:09] chris welsh: Everyone happy? Any comments or concerns?
[20:09] svartrev: busy reading them now :)
[20:09] chris welsh: sure, i'll give u guys a minute...
[20:10] jewel: I think there is a mistake in the minutes from the AGM
[20:10] francoisvn: in terms of quorum i suspect i don't count (just here to help)
[20:10] svartrev: It's so long ago, and with the AGM inbetween I'm getting muddled
[20:10] chris welsh: Sure :)
[20:10] jewel: Mentions Gerrit Kapp as being present but it was Gerrit from PE?
[20:11] chris welsh: at the council meeting??
[20:11] svartrev: there are two Gerrits ?
[20:11] francoisvn: AGM
[20:11] chris welsh: AGM is not on the agenda tonight...
[20:11] jewel: Yes Gerrit Kapp is from Pretoria
[20:12] adavies: Gerrit Goosen (from PE) was present at the AGM
[20:12] jewel: sure, but I thought I would mention it now
[20:12] svartrev: oh, right
[20:12] svartrev: Gerrit Goosen is a new member, right?
[20:12] jewel: yes
[20:12] adavies: correct
[20:13] svartrev: that's why I don't recall two Gerrits... carry on :)
[20:13] chris welsh: OK - it is a wiki tho - you can fix it :) - anyway, i've done so
[20:13] chris welsh: So, proposer and seconder for the council meeting minutes?
[20:13] svartrev: I'll propose
[20:13] jewel: I second
[20:14] svartrev: I've finished reading them, and I'm happy with them
[20:14] svartrev: As far as I can recall :)
[20:14] chris welsh: I'll assume you're all voting in favour, so pls state if that is not the case
[20:14] chris welsh: OK, cool
[20:15] chris welsh: Next council meeting tentatively set for 17 September
[20:15] chris welsh: I quite liked the doodle thing that we did for this one, tho, so might try that again closer to the time
[20:15] adavies: Thats fine
[20:16] chris welsh: Regarding the new council, are we OK with my suggested structure?
[20:16] chris welsh: Does anyone have any concerns or alternative suggestions?
[20:17] chris welsh: In short, we all keep our existing portfolios, except Andrew takes over from Francois, and Gordon takes over from Andrew
[20:17] adavies: I like the change :-)
[20:18] svartrev: Sounds fine to me. I'm happy so long as I stay in membership...
[20:19] chris welsh: This is not really a proposal we need to vote on. Basically, we all need to be happy.
[20:19] svartrev: How's Gordon feel about being president straight off the bat?
[20:19] chris welsh: You'll have to ask him :)
[20:19] chris welsh: I will assist him as necessary
[20:20] gordon.wells: have to start somewhere :)
[20:20] chris welsh: And I reassured him that its actually the easiest role of all
[20:20] chris welsh: figurehead role :)
[20:21] svartrev: Sounds like we're all happy, then
[20:21] chris welsh: Alright, cool
[20:21] chris welsh: Welcome, Gordon, and thanks again, Francois
[20:21] francoisvn: :)
[20:22] chris welsh: OK, next item on the agenda is report on closed items
[20:22] chris welsh: I moved the closed items to
[20:22] chris welsh: You can see the last few items on that page were the items we closed last time
[20:22] chris welsh: I don't think there is anything specific to discuss in that regard, however
[20:23] chris welsh: They are relatively uncontroversial items, I think
[20:24] chris welsh: Moving on to portfolio items, then
[20:24] chris welsh: President?
[20:24] chris welsh: if you're not sure what topics to include
[20:24] chris welsh: (Andrew as president for now)
[20:24] adavies: Haven't received the NGO docs yet
[20:24] chris welsh: from who?
[20:25] adavies: They were supposed to be sent registered post, but I don't know what has happened to them
[20:25] adavies: I'll need to dig up an old email for details
[20:25] chris welsh: Is that something you can hand over to Gordon?
[20:26] chris welsh: Or do you need to resolve it?
[20:26] adavies: I'll forward what I have
[20:26] gordon.wells: ok
[20:26] adavies: It was actually all done by Ben, but he gave them my address (as president)
[20:27] adavies: EGF - Aki is not eligible for any participation
[20:27] chris welsh: ok. no surprise there
[20:27] adavies: League under way
[20:28] adavies: And i think that was all my action items?
[20:28] chris welsh: well, we'll cover action items later on
[20:28] adavies: Ah, I see there was a financing SA closed...
[20:28] chris welsh: this is an opportunity to talk about other things presidential
[20:29] adavies: Nothing useful decided yet, there was some discussion but no progress
[20:30] chris welsh: any news on KPMC or WAGC?
[20:30] adavies: KPMC invitation not yet received
[20:30] adavies: WAGC starts this week!
[20:30] chris welsh: I wonder if its going to happen
[20:31] chris welsh: I note with disappointment that your video entry is absent!
[20:31] adavies: They gave a tentative September date
[20:31] svartrev: video entry?
[20:31] chris welsh: Andrew knows what I'm talking about..
[20:31] chris welsh:
[20:32] adavies: My son was going to do it and sadly (read "fortunately") his cell phone died
[20:32] chris welsh: OK, if there's no other presidential stuff, we'll move onto John
[20:32] adavies: That's it from me
[20:33] chris welsh: Any treasurer stuff to bring up (not action item stuff)
[20:33] jewel: I don't think so
[20:33] chris welsh: We're all up to date with our bills?
[20:33] chris welsh: Stock situation OK?
[20:33] jewel: I promised to send Andrew stock and I didn't do that
[20:34] adavies: Stock needed in WC!!!!
[20:34] jewel: but I can discuss that with him separately
[20:34] chris welsh: how will you get it there?
[20:34] gordon.wells: Christiaan will be up there in July, he might be able to bring some down
[20:34] jewel: I was planning to send a parcel with the post office
[20:34] adavies: He-Jin is also always willing to bring some
[20:35] chris welsh: OK, will leave you guys to sort that out
[20:35] francoisvn: i might be up to Joburg in late June or early July. Can probably hlpe bring some stuff down
[20:35] francoisvn: s/hlpe/help
[20:35] jewel: let me see what the shipping costs, it might be less hassle
[20:35] chris welsh: ok
[20:36] francoisvn: i will send an email to council if i don't hear anything and i am going
[20:36] chris welsh: from my side, I only note that I need to grant access to the SAGA folder to Gordon
[20:36] chris welsh: I'll make a note to deal with that
[20:36] chris welsh: (on google drive, that is)
[20:36] chris welsh: Paul - any membership news?
[20:37] svartrev: Not much. I'm afraid with all the issues I've had (PC problems, moving, etc) I've fallen way behind on stuff
[20:37] svartrev: I have completed the 2013 and 2014 credit points
[20:37] svartrev: All finalised now
[20:37] jewel: We only have 17 members registered for 2015
[20:38] chris welsh: thanks
[20:38] chris welsh: wow
[20:38] jewel: Hopefully more will register at the Gauteng tournament on Sunday
[20:38] chris welsh: there hasn't been much of a membership drive, tho, as far as I can tell?
[20:38] svartrev: Although I note that this year's credit points calcs may be another problem, and therefore possibly much delayed
[20:38] chris welsh: because of the winter league?
[20:38] adavies: So by default, Gerrit can be reserve for SA Closed
[20:38] svartrev: Memberships: I need to add a couple, and make sure the list is up to date
[20:39] svartrev: I did send out emails at the beginning of the year, and collect fees at the Cape Town club. And I asked someone.. John, I think? to do the same in Joburg
[20:39] chris welsh: have any reminder emails gone out?
[20:39] svartrev: But there wasn't much response this year
[20:40] svartrev: Normally I don't send more mails out after the deadline, but I should probably do another round of mails, just because of the low response rate
[20:41] chris welsh: Please
[20:41] svartrev: I also need to liaise with the AGA about the subscriptions, and check again with them why we aren't getting the full subscription. I checked last year, and was assured we would get it for eveybody on the list I sent, but that hasn't happened
[20:41] svartrev: So I must still do that
[20:42] svartrev: Other than that, there is only the schools programme, really
[20:42] gordon.wells: We're attempting some cross-fertilisation with the SUN boardgaming group, hopefully we'll get some new members from there
[20:42] svartrev: And almost nothing has happened on that front since I rushed overseas last year
[20:42] svartrev: Ah, cool Gordon
[20:42] chris welsh: OK
[20:43] chris welsh: Tournaments
[20:43] chris welsh: Francois/Andrew?
[20:43] adavies: I have the league in hand
[20:43] adavies: Need to pick up the rest from Francois
[20:43] jewel: We're having the Gauteng open on Sunday
[20:44] adavies: esp Candidates players as that is quite soon
[20:44] chris welsh: yes indeed
[20:44] chris welsh: this month isn'$*!%?
[20:44] jewel: Andre has invited players who would normally not come so we're hoping for a good turn out
[20:44] chris welsh: isn't it?
[20:44] francoisvn: From my side: WAGC is happening this weekend. Preliminary Candidates invites should have gone out last week, but I didn't get to it. Will send them out ASAP and the final invites after the Gauteng Open
[20:44] francoisvn: Candidates is later this month, correct
[20:45] chris welsh: so are you going to handle that francois?
[20:45] chris welsh: no need for andrew to take that over
[20:45] francoisvn: I can at least handle the invitations
[20:45] chris welsh: especially with him going to wagc, that would be great
[20:45] chris welsh: sure
[20:46] chris welsh: the event is a minor detail compared to gettting ready for it
[20:46] adavies: I'm hoping you (Francois) can do that as I'm out of circulation until 17 June
[20:46] francoisvn: No worries, I will handle it
[20:46] adavies: Great, thanks
[20:47] chris welsh: OK moving onto action items
[20:47] chris welsh:
[20:47] francoisvn: (Nothing else I can think of from my side)
[20:48] chris welsh: 1208 - SAGA's strategy
[20:48] chris welsh: this is a seven year old item...I wonder if it's ever going to go anywhere
[20:48] chris welsh: I somehow doubt it
[20:48] chris welsh: sorry, not seven
[20:48] chris welsh: but its old
[20:48] francoisvn: seems like it kinda needs to happen though
[20:49] jewel: I feel like it's too broad
[20:49] chris welsh: agreed to both of those
[20:50] jewel: More specific items like, No. 5.11: Policy for SA Closed flights, are more likely to be addressed
[20:50] jewel: and even then take long
[20:50] chris welsh: Yes
[20:50] chris welsh: A strategy other than "survive" is good to have
[20:50] svartrev: well, they're supposed to be dependent on this, though...
[20:50] adavies: I found that we are hampered by lack of funds and sponsors, so it is hard to plan ahead
[20:50] chris welsh: But in my experience of doing this kind of things, coming up with a strategy is amazingly hard
[20:51] chris welsh: it requires a group of to spend, say, a whole day together
[20:51] chris welsh: possibly two
[20:51] jewel: hehe
[20:51] chris welsh: and that's basically impossible
[20:51] chris welsh: SA closed is as close as we ever get to that
[20:51] chris welsh: and that's not this whole forum
[20:52] chris welsh: But yes, other decisions are effectively on hold because of this item
[20:52] chris welsh: But perhaps we can see if Gordon has any appetite for this item....
[20:52] jewel: I don't think we should assume any sponsorship for 2015 or 2016
[20:52] chris welsh: or at least can find a way to narrow the scope
[20:53] jewel: but of course every is welcome to think about ways to get some
[20:53] jewel: everyone
[20:53] chris welsh: I'll take an action to share what I can about this item with Gordon
[20:53] chris welsh: and see what he feels we can do about it
[20:53] adavies: Not sure if SA Congress belongs here or under tournaments, but EGF have offered some assistance
[20:54] chris welsh: We can discuss that later
[20:54] chris welsh: This is just to get an update on 1208
[20:54] chris welsh: of which there is none
[20:54] chris welsh: i presume?
[20:54] adavies: It is so I'm afraid
[20:54] chris welsh: :)
[20:55] chris welsh: 909 - the welile situation
[20:55] chris welsh: I see there's an action on me to progress it
[20:55] chris welsh: Sorry
[20:55] chris welsh: I have made no progress
[20:55] chris welsh: Any news on this from your side, John?
[20:56] jewel: no progress
[20:56] jewel: I have loaned SAGA about R7000 to buy go sets
[20:56] jewel: so I have a new incentive to follow up on this
[20:56] chris welsh: what's that got to do with Welile?
[20:56] jewel: oh sorry, I'm on 3.11
[20:57] chris welsh: ...way ahead of us...
[20:57] chris welsh: I meant any news on 909 from you, John
[20:57] jewel: No news
[20:57] chris welsh: i.e. what news from Welile's teaching, or Ben's sponsorship etc
[20:57] chris welsh: ok
[20:57] chris welsh: 910 - liaison with culture
[20:58] chris welsh: Andrew?
[20:58] adavies: I drafted a letter - needs to be approved/ cleaned up by council - not sent to anyone
[20:58] chris welsh: Have you forwarded it to council?
[20:59] adavies: I think I only sent it to you for a first check
[20:59] chris welsh: OK
[20:59] chris welsh: Can you ssend it the council
[20:59] adavies: I'll get it out to all
[20:59] chris welsh: and put a deadline on responses
[20:59] chris welsh: I'll ask Gordon to take over this item
[20:59] adavies: ok
[21:00] chris welsh: but if you could mail the draft so long that would be great
[21:00] gordon.wells: sure
[21:00] chris welsh: OK, John - 3..11
[21:00] jewel: right
[21:00] jewel: no progress
[21:00] chris welsh: sounds like a biblical referrence
[21:00] jewel: jewel: I have loaned SAGA about R7000 to buy go sets
[21:01] jewel: jewel: so I have a new incentive to follow up on this
[21:01] jewel: :-)
[21:01] chris welsh: indeed you do
[21:01] chris welsh: ok
[21:01] chris welsh: 5.11 sa closed flights
[21:01] chris welsh: hmm
[21:01] chris welsh: again this was on me
[21:02] chris welsh: I have to say that managing the admin of saga is just about all I can cope with
[21:02] chris welsh: secretary is pretty time consuming
[21:02] jewel: I have discussed this issue with Andre
[21:02] chris welsh: I can't really take on too many action items
[21:02] jewel: he would really like the SA Closed to be face to face
[21:02] jewel: if there is a way for us to arrange it
[21:02] adavies: I agree....
[21:03] jewel: but it's not sustainable for SAGA to keep sponsoring three flight tickets
[21:03] svartrev: I'm not in it, but I agree
[21:03] chris welsh: i remind you: 17 members....
[21:03] adavies: Could you give us a SAGA budget and we'll see if the players can make up the shortfall?
[21:03] jewel: We could do something like that
[21:04] chris welsh: Note that Sam won't be able to afford anything
[21:04] chris welsh: Or Welile if the venue is CT
[21:04] jewel: right, it wouldn't be an even split
[21:04] jewel: but voluntary contributions
[21:04] svartrev: Maybe the shortfall could be shared amongst all the players?
[21:04] chris welsh: If I make it, I'd be willing to contribute
[21:04] jewel: I think that would be difficult
[21:05] jewel: We'll need to decide soon though
[21:05] jewel: or agree to have this year's SA Closed online and plan for the next year
[21:05] chris welsh: I'm thinking that the opportunity to take part in SA closed is worth the flight
[21:05] chris welsh: So perhaps the budget should be reserved for those in financial need?
[21:06] jewel: that sounds fair
[21:06] adavies: I think we could request donations - if they are insufficient, we'll have to use internet
[21:06] jewel: but there are all sorts of issues
[21:06] jewel: the CT players who can afford may be the ones who end up paying
[21:06] chris welsh: every year...
[21:06] chris welsh: yes, good point
[21:07] chris welsh: that would only be fair if the venue switched every year
[21:07] jewel: I propose that we have the SA Closed online this year
[21:07] adavies: although Jhb do transport/venue/accomodation so it is fairly balanced
[21:07] jewel: and have a thorough discussion in the community about how to arrange it in 2016
[21:07] svartrev: and if the venue isn't decided by quilifying numbers, then it might be more expensive than it needs to be
[21:07] svartrev: s/quilifying/qualifying
[21:08] chris welsh: Again, speaking personally, and speaking for 2015, I'd be willing to pay for my flight if I qualify
[21:08] chris welsh: i.e. i'd rather it were held in person
[21:08] adavies: me too
[21:08] jewel: me too
[21:08] svartrev: me too
[21:09] chris welsh: how about joburg 2015 and ct 2016
[21:09] chris welsh: decided in advance
[21:10] chris welsh: check with players that they're happy to fly
[21:10] jewel: Ok, so we'll defer this to next year?
[21:10] chris welsh: saga pays for sam/welile (anyone else who genuinely can't afford it)
[21:10] chris welsh: well, i'm not suggesting defering
[21:10] chris welsh: i'm suggesting we put this out to all likely players
[21:10] chris welsh: now
[21:10] jewel: we won't know what the jhb/ct split will be in advance though
[21:10] chris welsh: and ask for agreement
[21:10] chris welsh: i'm saying regardless of split, its held in CT in 2016
[21:11] jewel: hm, tbut that can be more expensive
[21:11] francoisvn: asking for any disagreements will be more likely to result in no responses :)
[21:11] chris welsh: not for saga
[21:12] jewel: if someone doesn't want to pay (but can) do we exclude them?
[21:12] chris welsh: that would be part of the discussion
[21:12] chris welsh: I'm suggesting that we ask the players to decide
[21:12] chris welsh: rather than us
[21:12] jewel: yes, I agree we need to have a discussion
[21:12] adavies: perhaps we can ask 2 things - who would pay for their own flight, and who would contribute if the venue was local
[21:13] chris welsh: Perhaps Andrew can take this on - mail all the likely pplayers, and put some suggestions forward
[21:13] svartrev: I think we'd need to have some idea of how much that contribution would be
[21:13] chris welsh: and ask for opinions and ideas
[21:13] svartrev: Would it be in the order of R50, R300, R1000 ?
[21:13] adavies: I'll do that
[21:14] chris welsh: If we assume that saga can cover one flight
[21:14] chris welsh: (can we?)
[21:14] jewel: probably on the order of R1200 - R1500
[21:14] chris welsh: then wwe can take it from there
[21:14] svartrev: each?
[21:14] jewel: yes
[21:14] chris welsh: elaborate, Johh?
[21:14] jewel: I expect we'll spend around R6000 - R7500 for three flights
[21:15] jewel: And there will be two players who can't pay
[21:15] svartrev: so if there are 8 players, and each contributes R1200, that's... ... ... R9600
[21:15] jewel: I don't know how Victor will feel about it
[21:15] chris welsh: what can saga contribute?
[21:16] jewel: I'll have to have a careful look
[21:16] chris welsh: i.e. if we assume that all profits for saga in 2014 go to 2015 flights
[21:16] chris welsh: what is the maximum we can contribute
[21:16] chris welsh: i mean, maximum saga can contribute
[21:17] jewel: My feeling is R1000-R2000
[21:17] adavies: I guess John can add that to my follow up email
[21:17] chris welsh: ok, so at best, one flight ticket
[21:17] chris welsh: flights are around 2k, right?
[21:17] chris welsh: 2.5k?
[21:17] jewel: Right now about R2k
[21:17] adavies: less if we get in early
[21:18] svartrev: wow, flights are that much now?
[21:18] chris welsh: yeah its a real problem
[21:18] chris welsh: OK, maybe we should move on
[21:18] svartrev: what happened to the days of R800 a flight...
[21:18] chris welsh: I think we've made a little progress
[21:18] chris welsh: And Andrew will follow up on this
[21:18] adavies: yep
[21:19] chris welsh: 1.11 Mind Sports...
[21:19] chris welsh: No idea what this is
[21:19] chris welsh: even tho its mine..
[21:19] chris welsh: I mean 7.11
[21:19] chris welsh: I'll try and figure that out
[21:20] chris welsh: so no progress for now
[21:20] chris welsh: 1.12 floating oza
[21:20] chris welsh: francois?
[21:20] jewel: Is the trophy in CT?
[21:20] jewel: Andre has the other trophies
[21:22] chris welsh: francois appears to be AFK
[21:22] chris welsh: lets move onto 1.13
[21:22] chris welsh: SA Closed selection
[21:22] chris welsh: possibly need francois for this one too
[21:23] francoisvn: sorry, back
[21:23] francoisvn: the floating trophy is sitting in Steve's office
[21:24] chris welsh: perhaps we should just take it Andre?
[21:24] chris welsh: Ask Christiaan to do so?
[21:24] chris welsh: keep them together?
[21:24] jewel: makes sense
[21:24] jewel: I don't think there is much enthusiasm for engraving trophies though
[21:24] chris welsh: indeed not
[21:24] francoisvn: on the other trophies: I thought Paul Edwards had them. there was a plan to get all the engraving up to date, but first the extent of the engraving needed to be quantified
[21:25] chris welsh: if we have a major event again, we can pick it up
[21:25] jewel: agreed
[21:25] francoisvn: i do also think that the trohpy action items are very low priority at this point in time
[21:25] chris welsh: sure
[21:26] chris welsh: but isn't it better to have them together?
[21:26] jewel: yes
[21:26] chris welsh: getting it to andre is really easy (i think)
[21:26] chris welsh: christiaan is going to joburg shortly, and get it from steve
[21:26] chris welsh: we can but ask
[21:26] chris welsh: unless you disagree, francois?
[21:26] francoisvn: that sounds like a good plan considering it is meant to go to Victor
[21:27] chris welsh: oh is it being donated to him?
[21:27] francoisvn: nope, no disagreement from me :)
[21:27] chris welsh: until the next oza...?
[21:27] chris welsh: ok
[21:27] chris welsh: victor can engrave it... :)
[21:27] chris welsh: ok, lets move on
[21:27] chris welsh: SA Closed
[21:27] francoisvn: yeah, as far as I'm aware it's meant to be donated to him
[21:27] francoisvn: :)
[21:27] francoisvn: no update on 1.13 from me
[21:28] chris welsh: but its a hot topic at the moment, right?
[21:28] chris welsh: what with PE representatives...
[21:28] chris welsh: Andrew?
[21:28] francoisvn: this is true
[21:28] adavies: Certainly needs resolving
[21:28] adavies: I can follow up
[21:29] francoisvn: although non-CT/Joburg players weren't originally part of 1.13, it should probably address it
[21:29] adavies: Mainly need to see what rules apply
[21:29] adavies: as internet seems the fairest option for remote individual players
[21:29] francoisvn: i think the old rules don't have provision for Gerrit from PE and we need to make a new plan
[21:30] adavies: using the league could be an option
[21:30] svartrev: wait, how do things currently work?
[21:30] svartrev: there is a CT and JoBurg open, but what about Stellenbosch players?
[21:31] francoisvn: we come through :)
[21:31] svartrev: is that the only way you can qualify?
[21:31] svartrev: what about the Stellenbosch open?
[21:31] adavies: stb players can qualify by playing in CT open, etc
[21:31] gordon.wells: it probably make sense to pool for now
[21:32] svartrev: yes, but that means they *have* to travel, just like PE would otherwise need to do. What if Stellenbosch don't want to travel?
[21:32] svartrev: Not that this is really a problem, but isn't it theoretically the same problem?
[21:32] francoisvn: then we have to organise an open
[21:32] svartrev: (not a problem at present in practice)
[21:33] svartrev: But you don't have enough members for an open, so usually we come through... does that mean CT players get two chances to qualify?
[21:33] francoisvn: sure, but that's kinda like saying pretoria isn't joburg so we need two in gauteng
[21:33] gordon.wells: I understand it's fair amount of travelling for a number of CT players to TOM too?
[21:34] francoisvn: yeah, you could also fly up and play in the geuteng open to get anothe chance :)
[21:34] svartrev: So you get a chance for each tournament you are in?
[21:34] svartrev: Huh, I hadn't expected that...
[21:34] francoisvn: well kinda, the selection is a bit ad-hoc, normalised around performance
[21:34] francoisvn: so it's basically your best performance that matters
[21:35] svartrev: right
[21:35] francoisvn: and the normalisation is meant to account for very different strength pools and sizes
[21:35] svartrev: Then doesn't it make sense to hold an internet tournament for all players not part of a region, where anyone can join in?
[21:36] svartrev: That gives the people like Gerrit a shot
[21:36] adavies: 1 option is an SA Open on-line
[21:36] chris welsh: since the candidates is an internet event, this particularly makes sense
[21:36] adavies: indeed
[21:36] chris welsh: altho i guess the regional filtering means we've all at least met the plaers
[21:36] chris welsh: players
[21:37] svartrev: Yeah, the only downside is then say, I could enter the CT, Stellenbosch and SA opens, and get three chances to make it, whereas Gerrit would only get one... But I don't think this is a problem in practice
[21:37] adavies: I think let me collate all input via email
[21:37] adavies: and put forward a proposal
[21:37] chris welsh: will it be done for this sa closed, tho?
[21:37] chris welsh: presumably not?
[21:37] chris welsh: its in a few weeks time
[21:37] adavies: no - time is too short
[21:38] chris welsh: ok
[21:38] chris welsh: shall we move on?
[21:38] adavies: yep
[21:38] chris welsh: 3.13 NPO - I have not done anything about this
[21:39] chris welsh: 5.13 Funding for Sowete Go
[21:39] chris welsh: This will need someone to take over from Ben
[21:39] chris welsh: or it needs to be put on hold
[21:39] chris welsh: I'm going to suggest the latter
[21:39] chris welsh: unless anyone feels strongly about this item
[21:39] jewel: I think it's maybe better to close it
[21:40] jewel: if there is any news we can reopen it
[21:40] chris welsh: agreed
[21:40] chris welsh: Gordon/Andrew/Paul?
[21:40] chris welsh: any thoughts?
[21:40] adavies: I also think close it
[21:40] svartrev: I would have liked to see it continue, but this has been a discussion point for so long...
[21:41] chris welsh: this is not the welile item
[21:41] svartrev: And we don't seem to have any answers to oversight, or funding
[21:41] gordon.wells: like a lot of things, contingent on increased membership
[21:41] svartrev: Oh?
[21:41] chris welsh: it hasn't been discussed for a very long time
[21:41] chris welsh:
[21:41] chris welsh: I don't recall it being discussed in my current time on the council
[21:42] chris welsh: this is gather sponsorship for go in soweto in general
[21:42] chris welsh: the welile teaching is already closed
[21:42] svartrev: oh, right
[21:42] svartrev: But this is marked as a 2013 item...
[21:42] svartrev: so it must have been discussed then?
[21:42] chris welsh: surre, but i only rejoined in 2014:)
[21:43] svartrev: right
[21:43] chris welsh: i think
[21:43] chris welsh: not sure
[21:43] chris welsh: anyway, i'm going to put this on hold
[21:43] chris welsh: 1.14 bank charges
[21:43] svartrev: Ok, well, I don;t know what's happening with it, and I see no other avenues to persue at the moment, so I agree, let's close it, we can rather re-open it if anyting new comes up
[21:43] jewel: 1.14 I also suggest we close, if I become aware of a better bank account option then I'll raise it
[21:44] chris welsh: ok
[21:44] svartrev: did we look into Capitec?
[21:44] svartrev: (I think we did, but I forget...)
[21:44] chris welsh: not sure - john?
[21:45] jewel: I think I checked
[21:45] jewel: They don't seem to have what we need
[21:45] chris welsh: ok, i will close it
[21:45] svartrev: ok, well, I seem to recall despite the supposedly high fees, there was nothing cheaper that was appropriate, so sure, let's close it
[21:45] chris welsh: 2.14 ct initiative
[21:46] chris welsh: is this likely to ever be documented?
[21:46] chris welsh: if not, lets close it
[21:46] svartrev: Uh...
[21:46] svartrev: Right now there's very little to document
[21:46] chris welsh: ok...
[21:46] svartrev: With the Korean Embassy sponsorship, I must give it a good push before giving up on schools Go
[21:47] chris welsh: have you got time, tho?
[21:47] svartrev: I hope so... I did last year, but changed jobs earlier this year, so haven't had time so far, but I've made arrangements to have some more time for this, hopefully enough...
[21:48] chris welsh: anyway, i'll leave this item open for now, on the assumption that you'll push this before the end of the year
[21:48] chris welsh: 3.14 internet league
[21:48] svartrev: One way or another, think I have to have some sort of answer by then yes
[21:48] chris welsh: thanks, paul
[21:48] svartrev: Either something has started, or I have to call it off and return the money
[21:48] chris welsh: cool
[21:48] svartrev: So I will update the council accordingly as things progress :)
[21:48] chris welsh: 3.14 the league is underway (thanks andrew)
[21:49] adavies: league in progress....
[21:49] chris welsh: we still need to decide on the credit points
[21:49] adavies: point allocation needs resolving
[21:49] adavies: and getting some things on the web (like the schedule/reults/etc)
[21:49] svartrev: well... I'll try to have a look at the current system sometime soon
[21:49] chris welsh: subject to logistical issues (python), are there any opinions on my proposal for the points
[21:50] svartrev: I'm honestly not sure I understood all the ins and outs
[21:50] adavies: I think your proposal is good - needs council acceptance
[21:50] svartrev: but you and Andrew probably have the best understanding of the credit points system now that Steve isn't here, and maybe Francois
[21:51] chris welsh: i'm just trying to find my mail...
[21:51] chris welsh: i should have put it on the wiki rather...
[21:52] francoisvn: I have very poor understanding of the system, I just know what to do with the numbers that come out :)
[21:52] svartrev: :) same ehre
[21:52] svartrev: s/ehre/here
[21:53] chris welsh: Proposed system (assuming everyone plays every game, in a round robin format): Everyone earns minimum of 70 points (16*70=1120), leaving 4218 points to be distributed. These are distributed to the players as follows : 800, 650, 525, 425, 350, 300, 250, 200, 150, 125, 100, 75, 50, 30, 20, 10 for a to
[21:53] chris welsh: tal of 1120 + 4060 = 5180. This is a bit less in total than before, but not much, and it allows for a reasonably attractive points differential between the places, and reasonably round numbers.
[21:53] chris welsh: well, that's a bit terse
[21:54] chris welsh: I'll have to flesh it out
[21:54] chris welsh: which i can do on a wiki page
[21:54] chris welsh: and distribute it
[21:54] chris welsh: but tthe basic idea
[21:54] chris welsh: was to allocate roughly the same number of points
[21:54] chris welsh: but in a way to reward participation
[21:54] chris welsh: more heavily
[21:54] chris welsh: to encourage players to take part (and too play all their games)
[21:55] svartrev: so same system as before, but worth twice the points, and weighted more to participation?
[21:55] chris welsh: um
[21:55] chris welsh: kind of
[21:56] chris welsh: i'm not quite sure of the doubling
[21:56] chris welsh: is that justified?
[21:56] chris welsh: ok lets do this in order:
[21:56] svartrev: well, it replaces two internet tournaments...
[21:56] chris welsh: first, lets agree on the pricniples
[21:56] chris welsh: and then talk about the actual points at stake
[21:56] chris welsh: is everyone ok tthat we should reward participation more?
[21:57] chris welsh: given that it means less points at stake for doing well?
[21:57] chris welsh: that might have the unintended consequence of reducing participation because it doesn't reward skill enough
[21:58] chris welsh: that seems like its hard to know
[21:58] chris welsh: we might have to just try it and see
[21:58] svartrev: the idea behind this was to increase participation, which was flagging under the one-day routnaments, right?
[21:58] chris welsh: absolutely
[21:58] chris welsh: and lots of ppl have entered...but worryingly, not many people have played
[21:58] svartrev: then the idea of rewarding participation more seems sound
[21:58] francoisvn: so something to think about is: for most players, i don't think the exact credit point allocation is very important (IMHO)
[21:58] svartrev: although, as you say, it might backfire
[21:58] chris welsh: theres more peoploe that have entered thanbelong to saga!
[21:58] adavies: seems the league is generating interest regardless of the points - which is great
[21:59] svartrev: Francois is right, I think in practice the point allocation is mostly meaningless
[21:59] chris welsh: well, for dan players, its not
[21:59] francoisvn: only the top players really care about it
[21:59] francoisvn: yeah
[21:59] adavies: as for skill - I think SA closed and candidates keep it well balanced
[21:59] svartrev: well, ok, maybe they do, but in their case it is likely to be a case of wanting more points for doing well...
[22:00] francoisvn: so if dan player are the ones that care, then maybe try incentivise them to play more by skewing point in their favour?
[22:00] svartrev: but if you get points simply for playing...
[22:00] chris welsh: hmm
[22:01] chris welsh: so participation points are wasted, is that your point, francois?
[22:01] svartrev: I don't know... I think your idea is worth a try, Chris
[22:01] chris welsh: rather give the crdit points to the top players
[22:01] svartrev: Either that, or put it to the members
[22:01] francoisvn: i think having it heavily weighted towards the top makes sense
[22:01] francoisvn: so, stil laward some for participation, but the lion's share goes to the top
[22:02] chris welsh: perhaps we need to vote on this?
[22:02] francoisvn: not sure about this, but i don't think having a more "fair" system will incentivize weaker players to play
[22:03] chris welsh: yes, understood
[22:03] chris welsh: i see your point
[22:03] chris welsh: credit points are irrelevant to weaker players
[22:03] chris welsh: its just not clear where the cut off is
[22:03] francoisvn: i think around SDK you start to care
[22:03] chris welsh: anyone from 5k or so should be caring about credit points
[22:03] francoisvn: yeah
[22:03] chris welsh: assuming they are still trying to get stronger, that is
[22:04] francoisvn: not even
[22:04] francoisvn: just if they are interested in going to WAGC/KPMC and such
[22:04] chris welsh: ya
[22:05] chris welsh: well, good points have been made, i'm going to ask for a vote: 1 reward participation 2 incentivice top players
[22:06] chris welsh: ...
[22:06] jewel: I'm not sure
[22:06] chris welsh: 6 abstains?
[22:06] svartrev: tough choice...
[22:06] chris welsh: its not really a tough choice :)
[22:06] adavies: 3 - balance both - I think yor proposal does that
[22:06] svartrev: We may need to change this up at some point in the near future
[22:06] svartrev: But I'm going for 1, myself
[22:07] chris welsh: its not tough because we can change it
[22:07] chris welsh: just let me know your current preference
[22:07] adavies: the participation points are not many, and it does give some measure of reward
[22:07] francoisvn: only 5 possible votes - i'm just offering my non-council opinion
[22:07] jewel: Can we finish up the meeting?
[22:07] chris welsh: we're quite ssome way from finished, john..
[22:08] chris welsh: ok, so only two votes
[22:09] chris welsh: the more difficult issue is whether the winter league counts as one or two internet events
[22:09] svartrev: Actually, I thought that was pretty clear-cut
[22:09] svartrev: it replaces tow, so should be worth two
[22:09] adavies: I think it is easy - definitely 2...
[22:10] chris welsh: the only reason not to do that
[22:10] adavies: There are more games (and players) than 2 internet tournaments
[22:10] chris welsh: is that only your best two events counted
[22:10] chris welsh: so you could never get more that 1000 points a year
[22:10] chris welsh: now you can
[22:10] chris welsh: if you enter both internet events
[22:10] chris welsh: and the winter league
[22:11] chris welsh: you can get 1500
[22:11] chris welsh: (assuming we only allow one internet event to be counted)
[22:11] svartrev: so either this counts, or the other two internet tournaments, a player can't get one or the other counted...
[22:11] svartrev: sorry, can't get both counted
[22:11] svartrev: But it would be better to have people participate in both, so perhaps that's not the best system...
[22:12] svartrev: what if your best internet tournament and the winter league counted? So it incentavised people to play in both
[22:13] svartrev: The either we need to allow people to get more points, or the winter league must only count for one tourney
[22:13] chris welsh: that's the problem
[22:13] adavies: That sounds fine - and offsets the move to more participation points to some extent
[22:13] svartrev: what's the problem with more points?
[22:13] chris welsh: i don't know
[22:13] chris welsh: i don't understand the system well enough to know
[22:14] svartrev: Who does?
[22:14] chris welsh: but i guess the problem is that the system is meant to balance various factors
[22:14] chris welsh: it should not only be rewarding the top players
[22:14] chris welsh: which high credit point tournaments do
[22:14] chris welsh: participation is also important
[22:15] chris welsh: so perhaps we can consider doubling this event, but skew the points even more sharply towards particiption
[22:15] svartrev: so far credit points are only for going to the KPMC and WAGC, so we kind of do want the top players to be getting the most points, right?
[22:15] chris welsh: kind of
[22:15] chris welsh: but not exclusivley
[22:16] chris welsh: like i said, i don't understand the system well enough
[22:16] chris welsh: i don't know what balance between strength and particiation is desired
[22:16] chris welsh: what was the design of the orlginal systems
[22:16] svartrev: who designed them?
[22:16] chris welsh: look, we don't have to decide tonight
[22:16] chris welsh: we can defer this until our next meeting
[22:17] chris welsh: i'm just not sure what will change between now and then
[22:17] chris welsh: paul, i don't know
[22:17] chris welsh: previous councils, i guess
[22:18] chris welsh: ok, let me document on the wiki in more detail my proposal
[22:18] chris welsh: i will add some of the arguments tonight
[22:19] chris welsh: and i will ask saga for input
[22:19] chris welsh: either way we can vote on it at the next meeting
[22:19] chris welsh: OK?
[22:20] jewel: ok
[22:20] svartrev: sounds good
[22:20] gordon.wells: ok
[22:20] adavies: ok
[22:20] chris welsh: 4.14 EGD - i will try to add the results from the recent cape town open
[22:20] chris welsh: i will share my finding with john
[22:20] chris welsh: so that he can add the jhb open (if i am successful)
[22:21] jewel: ok
[22:21] chris welsh: 1.15 Andrew has already answered this
[22:21] chris welsh: 2.15 move away from kgs
[22:21] chris welsh: well, its more or less done
[22:21] chris welsh: we're using ogs for official stuff, and kgs is still used if players want to
[22:21] chris welsh: e.g. i played my match last night with andre on kgs
[22:22] chris welsh: it was just easier because we were both on kgs
[22:22] svartrev: what's the gameplay feedback like?
[22:22] chris welsh: very good
[22:22] chris welsh: there's no reason not to use it
[22:23] chris welsh: and reasons not to use kgs
[22:23] chris welsh: (well, i'm not aware of reasons not to use it)
[22:23] svartrev: what about IGS, out of interest, what was the reason not to switch to that?
[22:24] jewel: OGS is zero-install
[22:24] chris welsh: custom clients are a problem
[22:24] chris welsh: ogs is also on port 80
[22:24] chris welsh: unlike igs/kgs
[22:24] svartrev: yeah, ok the firewall makes sense
[22:25] svartrev: the custom client one I would have gone completely the opposite... anything without a custom client is a dicey proposal
[22:25] svartrev: but if player feedback is good, then we go with it
[22:25] chris welsh: sure, a client has a pretty high bar in terms of reliability and stability
[22:25] chris welsh: its reasonable to be concerned
[22:26] chris welsh: but i've not heard of any issues with stability
[22:26] chris welsh: lets move on, we're approaching the end :)
[22:26] svartrev: If we've had a tournment running on it without problems, then it will probably not give any issues
[22:26] chris welsh: the upcoming candidates will be on ogs
[22:26] svartrev: connectivity is likely to still be our major problem :)
[22:27] chris welsh: 3.15 no progress as yet
[22:27] chris welsh: 1.$*!% and 2.$*!% francois?
[22:27] chris welsh: sheesh
[22:27] chris welsh: 1.$*!%
[22:27] chris welsh: whoa
[22:27] chris welsh: 1 . $*!%
[22:27] chris welsh: :)
[22:27] chris welsh: 1. x x
[22:27] francoisvn: btw, doesn't 3.15 mean 3.13 is done?
[22:28] chris welsh: sort of
[22:28] chris welsh: i guess the outstanidng things on 3.13 can move to 3.15
[22:28] chris welsh: will do, thanks francois
[22:28] francoisvn: so unfortunately no progress on 1.$*!% or 2.$*!%
[22:28] chris welsh: :)
[22:29] francoisvn: i am still happy to help with some input from my side, but i definitely won't be able to take a focus on 1.$*!%
[22:29] chris welsh: ok
[22:29] francoisvn: or 2.$*!% (but that's a less important)
[22:30] chris welsh: the only agenda item not yet already covered is "Possible deduction of WAGC points for representing South Africa in ProAm events "
[22:30] chris welsh: again, its not urgent to resolve this, but we'd need to decide pretty soon
[22:30] svartrev: Is there anyone except Victor who can represent us at these?
[22:30] chris welsh: this is the issue of Victor (or others) playing in the Samsung events
[22:31] chris welsh: I don't see why not
[22:31] chris welsh: if victor wasn't here, we'd send Ben, presumably
[22:31] chris welsh: its an african invite not a victor invite
[22:32] chris welsh: Victor's proposal was that he donate some fraction of his tournament winnings
[22:32] chris welsh: rather than lose credit points
[22:32] svartrev: Aren't there any requirements to entry, given that it is a ProAma event? No required level or competition results?
[22:33] chris welsh: paul, good question.
[22:33] chris welsh: not sure
[22:33] chris welsh: its kind of moot, as every region can send 6d+ players
[22:33] svartrev: because if so, then it doesn't seem likely that we'd have other candidates for the spot, so Victor shouldn't lose points
[22:34] chris welsh: i don't think there are any minimum entry requirements
[22:34] svartrev: But if not, and we could send anybody, then there should be a point loss, and a way of deciding the candidate, either playoff or point standings
[22:34] chris welsh: i can certainly ask
[22:34] adavies: I agree - strength alone is important, and so the credit sytem should not apply
[22:34] svartrev: Yeah, for this it seems strength alone should be the criteria...
[22:35] chris welsh: it is the only criteria
[22:35] chris welsh: well, it is if we decide it is
[22:35] svartrev: then points aren't applicable
[22:36] svartrev: well, I guess they could be: "if you go to this, you shouldn't also go to another international event"
[22:36] chris welsh: hypotheticallly, if there was no wagc, or kpmc
[22:36] chris welsh: and this was the only way to meet internationally
[22:36] svartrev: But then it kind of means ony Victor can go to this, but if he does he'd miss his opportunity to go to something else
[22:36] chris welsh: would we still feel the saame way?
[22:37] chris welsh: (i.e. that it should only be strength)
[22:38] chris welsh: the consensus seems to be no credit point deduction?
[22:38] chris welsh: fracnois, you had the opposite opinioion, i recall?
[22:40] francoisvn: well kinda
[22:40] francoisvn: i don't have a strong opinion though
[22:41] francoisvn: it seems more fair to me to make a deduction
[22:41] svartrev: Perhaps not a full deduction?
[22:41] chris welsh: why not a full deduction?
[22:42] francoisvn: well, presumbly due to a lack of sponsorship
[22:42] chris welsh: assuming full sponsorship
[22:42] chris welsh: would you do the full deduction?
[22:42] svartrev: because it would (possibly) negatively influence Victor against going, as he then couldn't attend other tournaments?
[22:42] chris welsh: and what do you mean by "more fair"?
[22:43] svartrev: As he is (currently) the only one who could go to this?
[22:43] chris welsh: if you want to encourage him going to this and other events
[22:43] chris welsh: why deduct anything?
[22:43] adavies: Another issue I think is that these are normally invites to "Africa" - not to "SAGA" as an IGF member
[22:43] francoisvn: i think a full deduction for full sponsorship is "more fair"
[22:44] chris welsh: i'm pretty sure you have to be an igf member
[22:44] chris welsh: but again, i can ask
[22:44] chris welsh: @francois, fair in terms of what?
[22:44] francoisvn: by fair I mean: the idea behind credit points is to give others an oppurtunity to represent SA, and deductions are part of that
[22:44] chris welsh: representing SA? going on sponsored trips?
[22:45] francoisvn: yes
[22:45] francoisvn: both, but mostly the latter
[22:45] svartrev: is this sponsored?
[22:45] francoisvn: partially
[22:45] chris welsh: not very, but i'm trying to get to the principles
[22:46] chris welsh: is this, or the oza, sufficiently similar to the wagc that it hsould be trreatedthe same way?
[22:46] chris welsh: francois says yes
[22:46] chris welsh: andrew? gordon? john?
[22:46] chris welsh: your thoughts?
[22:46] svartrev: hrm, the fact that it is an "Africa" spot, not a SAGA spot, might be important ?
[22:47] chris welsh: i don't see why
[22:47] chris welsh: saga was invited to send a player
[22:47] jewel: I don't have an idea of the issues involved
[22:47] gordon.wells: not sure yet
[22:47] jewel: will need to read a proposal
[22:48] chris welsh: i'm not sure that there's anything more detailed than what we've outlined here
[22:48] adavies: was the request for a SAGA rep, or for SAGA to find an African rep?
[22:48] svartrev: but was SAGA asked specifically, or Africa in general? I thought the latter
[22:49] chris welsh: still not seeing the relevance
[22:49] svartrev: Which means that if other countries in Africa had wated, there would have had to be a playoff, so that does impact what we think of the sponsorship
[22:49] svartrev: I mean points allocation
[22:49] chris welsh: saga would only choose a saga player
[22:49] chris welsh: to either take part in an african playoff
[22:49] chris welsh: or go thru without a playoff
[22:49] chris welsh: either way, its a saga player that gets selected
[22:50] svartrev: sure, but if there is a playoff, would we choose the strongest player to represent us, or the one next in credit poitns line?
[22:50] chris welsh: i guess if the player didn't make it thru the playoffs, there's be nothing to debate
[22:51] chris welsh: no deduction
[22:51] svartrev: because that to me spells the difference. Why does Victor go? If he gets a points deduction, surely it is because we are using points to determine who goes?
[22:51] chris welsh: we are not using points
[22:51] svartrev: so, why deduct them?
[22:51] francoisvn: something to consider: always making a credit point deduction (in relation to the sponsorship, perhaps with a minimum) for any international event where an individual represents SA would definitely be a much simpler system to administer than having to consider all the intricacies of each tournament.
[22:51] francoisvn: although, this is a fairly weak argument, it's basically just saying it's less work so it might be better
[22:51] chris welsh: you make a compelling case
[22:52] chris welsh: paul, that is
[22:52] francoisvn: :P
[22:52] chris welsh: :)
[22:52] chris welsh: still contemplating your laziness proposal
[22:53] svartrev: it has its merits :)
[22:53] adavies: for me - laziness says stick to just WAGC and KPMC :-)
[22:53] chris welsh: another lazy option is: where we use credit points to determine the representative, deduct points
[22:53] chris welsh: where we don't, don't
[22:54] svartrev: hrm, didn't we say we wanted to send Victor as he had the best chance of bringing home the most money? So we want money, not credit point deductions ?
[22:54] chris welsh: we can't get away from teh work of deciding what system to use for new events
[22:54] chris welsh: so there's no free pass
[22:54] francoisvn: also very true, so my point is pretty moot because selection criteria will need to be determined and there's almost no way around that
[22:55] chris welsh: asking for a % of winnings has its own complications, of course
[22:55] chris welsh: but i've been persuaded to not deduct points
[22:56] chris welsh: i guess i shouldn't have said that until i'd called fora vote...
[22:56] svartrev: lol
[22:56] chris welsh: does anyone need more information or time before voting?
[22:56] adavies: I guess we have mostly shown our votes anyway :-)
[22:56] chris welsh: john are still unsure of the issues?
[22:57] jewel: yeah I'm just tired
[22:57] chris welsh: bearing in mind we're all a bit unsure
[22:57] jewel: I'll vote with Andrew
[22:57] chris welsh: it is late, we should be wrapping up soon, depending on any "matters arising"
[22:58] chris welsh: ok, well, for the record, i'd like to have a vote
[22:58] svartrev: none from me
[22:58] svartrev: (matters arising, that is)
[22:58] chris welsh: 1. no deduction for samsung 2. some deduction for samsung
[22:58] adavies: 1
[22:58] chris welsh: if 2. carries, we will have to clarify how much at a future event
[22:58] jewel: 1
[22:59] gordon.wells: 1
[22:59] chris welsh: alright then no need for me or paul to vote :)
[22:59] svartrev: 1
[22:59] francoisvn: i suggest you consider making this a new rule
[22:59] chris welsh: Agreed
[22:59] francoisvn: so, if credit points used for selection, deduct, otherwise not
[23:00] chris welsh: it has the merit of being a simple rule
[23:00] chris welsh: suspiciously simple
[23:00] adavies: and makes sense!
[23:00] chris welsh: ok, any matter arising from anyone?
[23:00] adavies: not here
[23:00] svartrev: I think if there are too many non-0deduct tournaments, we will ahve to consider sending someone other than Victor to all of them... but that is unlikely to happen in the near future :)
[23:00] svartrev: nope, none from me
[23:00] chris welsh: gordon, are there not any issues you want to bring up
[23:01] chris welsh: it might be a bit late to debate them, but it would be good to at least hear about them
[23:01] gordon.wells: ok for now, need to familiarise myself with a few things first
[23:01] chris welsh: ok, sure
[23:01] chris welsh: the shock of a 3 hour discussion may take some getting used to...
[23:02] chris welsh: i'm normally very drained after these
[23:02] chris welsh: fortunately i didn't go to work today
[23:02] chris welsh: john, francois, any matters arising?
[23:02] jewel: nope
[23:02] francoisvn: nope
[23:02] chris welsh: alright then, thats a wrap
[23:02] chris welsh: no slowdown issues
[23:02] chris welsh: i like this more than hangouts already
[23:02] jewel: thanks Chris
[23:03] svartrev: thanks folks
[23:03] chris welsh: thanks guys
[23:03] adavies: thanks Chris
[23:03] gordon.wells: thanks
[23:03] adavies: bye!
[23:03] svartrev: ciao all
[23:04] gordon.wells: cheers